...And like the Ugandan president put out this article a while ago, it was one of those little world news articles...the Ugandan president put out a call to have all homosexuals arrested.

Egypt is worse...In Egypt they just prosecuted about 52...yeah, they chat in Egyptian chat rooms to lure them to the busts...

Oh, ok [maybe use this at the end, or something...]

So, what's your name?

My name is Nick Shepard...N I C K S H E P A R D.

And what do you like to do?

I like to play guitar, I like to sing. And, play around with friends, play on swings, eat food, I'm a trendy activist, all that good stuff..you know how it is?

What kind of music?

I'm into the full punk rock and emo thing, but I like to play with Jazz, too.

Awesome, so what do you identify as?

I identify as bisexual...the one thing that I've noticed that it really seems to me that the only really clear-cut and static orientation is heterosexual. Because almost everyone I know that identifies as queer or bi or gay or lesbian or something like that says that while there is a general category that they feel like they fit into, that there is more to it than that, that there is individual exceptions...there is just more to it than just a simple category that you can fit into. So, I guess the one that most broadly describes me is bisexual.

Ok, and that's kind of a fluke (?)...so, are you out to your parents?

Yes, I am out to my parents, I've been out since this summer I guess I've been out five, four or five months now.

How did you come out to them?

Well, it had gotten to the point where all of my friends and coworkers, most everyone I interact with on a regular basis knew if I was ever planning on telling them and my parents were pretty much the last ones to know, so I'd been planning it out for quite a while and I was pretty nervous about it but, but one evening I was at my meditation group and I was just sitting and thinking and I just it just occurred to me that it would be the best for everyone involved if I would just go ahead and come out so that evening I went home and I brought it up. I was talking about a glysen conference that I was going to, and I brought up that I wanted to go and I just told them that I was bisexual. And I had this whole presentation planned out, so I told them all about how yes I was sure, and no it's not just because I have a gay friend, and and tried to clear up some of the questions I anticipated them asking. I was really fortunate because my parents were really supportive they uh they seemed pretty subdued, pretty stunned I guess. But, Umm, which is interesting because my mom had confronted me three or four times like to my face about it before. My mom had, had when when they asked if my best friend was gay, they said do you think you might be gay..and it's ok and I was like no no no, but I don't know. I was fortunate because they were pretty receptive and my parents they go to a Unitarian Universalit church and they're generally pretty liberal I guess you could say, and, and so they reaffirmed that they love me and what I do is my choice so in general it was pretty good. But since then, it's been pretty strict and taboo. We don't really don't really talk about it. And my my romantic life if definitely completely out of the realms of my parents influence. I've even found that since I've come out they've even stopped asking me about girls because since I say that I'm bi, they kinda have no idea whether someone is a friend or a lover or whatso, so I'll go out and eat dinner with a boy or girl, and they'd used to say "oh, is this a date?". But now, they sorta stay out of that business.

So they don't know who you're going out with?

No, they've got no idea about any of my relationships.

Do you feel like you have to hide stuff from them?

You know, I don't really know...there is definitely a benefit to ah..there are definitely some benefits to them not knowing, like someone will spend the night at the house (?) (laughter) and heh little things like that. And in general, just something I want to bring up with them. They don't tell me about their sex life, so I don't tell them about mine.

So do you wish they were more supportive or involved?

Well, I don't know. Me and my dad don't have a good relationship on any front, so that I'm not really too ruffled there. My mom and I really are very close, and I think she kinda has difficulty accepting that this is a definite, permanent and prominent part of my life and my identity, and I know that she is that she is not totally comfortable with that at this point but we still get along and she understands and accepts it to a degree, so I'm pretty much OK with that.

Why do you say it's such a prominent part of your life?

You know, I've wondered why, why my sexual orientation is such a prominent part of my life...I'm not really sure, it's just it just seems that back when I thought when I considered myself straight when I thought I was straight I'd it would never cross my mind, I would never go through the day thinking "hey, I'm straight!" whereas now I mean it's really on my mind a whole a lot, and I guess I don't know, I guess just because it's still such a such a such a taboo in many areas and something people don't want to bring up and don't want to address and something that is just not a part of mainstream like the mainstream lifestyle and the mainstream culture, that I just I guess it's just it keeps getting pushed into my face like when I'll see a boy and a girl in public kissing all over each other and then I'll just you know emphasize the fact that I can't do that with my boyfriend with whom I'm...

[tech stuff]

8:11

All right...so, when you said you thought you were straight, and when did that.. how did that change?

Well, I really was under the complete impression that I was gonna be a heterosexual I guess until the end of 10th grade, and I became acquainted with a really good friend who happened to be gay and we were really close and affectionate with each other, and then other people would would see us would see us hanging out and and I would hear whispers and things like that so over the summer between 10th and 11th grade I really started I really started wondering you know does this mean that I'm gay? Like, is that what I am? Is that where I have to be? SO I thought about it a whole lot, I came to the conclusion over the summer that I was straight.. I honestly thought I was and then I got back to school for the 11th grade and having thought through things a little more I just kinda noticed that wait.. I am kinda attracted to boys, too, and girls some and but that element was there so over the 11th grade I kinda went through the process of first coming to terms with it myself and then then eventually letting a few friend in on it and and um and I basically spent the whole year just kinda building myself up and reaching out into into that way of life if you will, or into that community and then eventually getting to the point where I could tell my parents.

How did your friends react when you told them?

In general, most of my friends were really cool. It I during that year I was making a lot of new friends and my group of friends sorta shifted a little and with my older friends a lot of them didn't know until many months after I figured it out. But uh, but a lot of my newer friends either identified as bisexual or were really comfortable with it and so I have had really good experiences with my friends. So I haven't had any friends that have been.. have reacted really negatively or've you know wanted to stop being my friend because of it or anything like that. So in general I've had really good experiences with friends.

How did it feel not to tell your old friends?

It got, it go really strange after a while not really telling my old friends particularly people I knew in middle school just because we've been through so much together when I was just operating in a whole different model of thinking and so it got to the point where it was pretty obvious to most people and actually several of them figured out for sure before I actually told them so it wasn't much of a surprise to most people at that point but it was kinda strange for a while.

[11:16]

So you didn't have any idea back when you were in elementary or middle school?

One, I don't know, I maybe it's because I considered it differently. But back in back in umm even elementary school and middle school in particular I noticed that I really didn't have many female friends and apart from having crushes on them and whatnot but but with my male friends I could really I felt I could really interact with them really well and I could share a lot with them and and connect really deeply with them in a way I had NEVER been able to with a female before. And so I just and at one point when I was thinking about that at the beginning of high school and actually.. cuz.. I write a lot to kind of get out my feelings actually at one point wrote I thought I was emotionally homosexual because I could because I couldn't relate too well to girls where as with boys I could forge deep connections so I guess that got me thinking but it never extended into the sexual realm until later on in high school and I guess I guess now I look at I don't really like the term sexuality or sexual orientation because it implies that the only element of it is your sexual attraction whereas I would consider it more of a broad thing in terms of your your emotional involvment with people and how you can act on that level because I think that is equally if not more important so so I had those kind of wonderings at first but it took a while for it all to crystallize into an identity.

SO even though you consider yourself bisexual, you have different emotional relationships with guys than girls?

Oh definitely, there is definitely a distinction between my relationships with guys and girls. I tend with girls to have more melodramatic and in my opinion less meaningful relationships and my attractions tend to be more sexual in nature, and of course there are exceptions, but that's in general that is how it has been. Whereas with boys I tend to I tend to have really good, really productive relationships and and I guess sexual attraction, while present tends to be a less prominent part of it. And I think that's probably related. I think probably when I'm less overwhelmed by hormones I consider myself a better person, I think I relate better to people. So, but that.. but there is definitely a distinction for me in the way in general in the way I relate to girls as opposed guys.

[14:00]

SO you're with a guy now obviously but you do feel like in the future you're going to continue dating guys more than girls, or exclusively?

[crash ... 14:50]

All right, in terms of the future, I'm fairly certain that I really am bisexual and that's the way I'm going to be for the rest of my life - That I'm never going to settle down into one category but I one of the major goals in my life is to raise children. I really really want to do that.. and at this point I don't think it really matters if I choose to partner with a boy or a girl or a male or a female. I guess just it seems it seems that that at this point gender really isn't that much of a factor of whom I'm attracted to in my relationships, so I think it's really going to depend on who I meet and who I feel I really connect with and and their plans and whether they want to raise children or not - and gay parenting is something I really haven't I really don't know much about because I guess it is so unconventional but it's something I want to learn more about as an option if I choose to do that.

[15:50]

Ok, cool, so let's change tack and ask the questions I'm supposed to. Um, how do you feel your friends, well not just your friends but people in general treat you at school?

[16:06]

Hmm, well, in general at school I'm I'm fairly well liked I guess and I'm treated treated by kids that are aware of my sexual orientation but there is there are pretty distinct groups that I chose to be out to and choose not to be out to I mean I have [babble] I don't mean to over generalize, but my friends that you could consider jocks or my friends that are kinda just more arrogantly male I guess you could say I tend to not bring up my sexual orientation with where as with my female friends and my queer friends and um folks like that.. I'm more comfortable being open to. There - in terms of the general school population I feel like the homophobia is really really prevalent and present not as much in my groups of friends just because I choose not to associate with homophobic people...but but in general I haven't really had any problems with harassment or with with being being assaulted or anything like that. It's not been a big problem.

[17:22]

Why do you think homophobia is so prevalent in schools?

The prevelance of homophobia is pretty hard to explain - I wish I knew so that I could correct it, but then again people say that about homosexuality "I wish I knew what caused it so I could fix it", which is a pretty odd idea to me, but I think I'm inclined to say that a lot of it comes from religious tradition or from just from moral traditions that haven't been examined in a contemporary light, so I guess I'm bias but I'm inclined to say that being less homophobic and being more tolerant is a sign of progress. SO on a more the more people really rationally think and analyze their beliefs and try to get out the real core ideas behind the moral precepts and things like that I think more people will come to be more tolerant and more understanding of people of all sexual orientations.

How do you deal with people who are homophobic? [18:30]

I generally tend to put myself in situations where I don't have to deal with people overtly homophobic, I tend to stay out of positions where I could be uncomfortable like that but when for example when I hear someone make an offhand homophobic slur I generally try and call them out on it and correct it - if I'm comfortable with it. If I'm, If I were at a party with drunken football players or something then chances are I wouldn't use that route - I'd just leave. But in general and I'm at school and someone calls someone else a fag or something or someone says oh that's so gay in a negative way then I'll try and point it out and say and tell them that they should think about what they're saying and think about the people that could be impacted by it, and things like that.

SO if you don't associate with homophobic people, do you think that's creating a rift in the student body? [19:25]

To a degree, yes - but I guess above all I need to be concerned with my safety, my physical safety; and while at my high school which tends to be generally be a pretty open place there is plenty of out of the closet people. But none the less, I mean I guess I tend not to associate with people that I label as homophobic out of concern of my physical well being as well as my emotional well being. And it's hard to know how to bridge that gap, it's hard to know how to reach people that you just can't relate to, and I wish I knew how to do that - I wish I could do it better. But in general, when I feel that people will be receptive to it I'll let them know what I think I'll let them know there is an alternative to this dominant way of thinking of homosexuality is weird or aberrant or a disease or outlandish or something like that. I try and laet them know what I think you know..an alternate perspective, but ultimately it'll be up to them of whether or not to be receptive [something like that].

DO you feel like you're getting the support you need from the teachers and administration? [20:45]

At school, I pretty much feel that I'm not really getting very much help. I don't know. Maybe in terms of counselors and things like that I don't know I really do't feel all that comfortable talking to adults, particularly straight adults about my sexual orientation I guess just because of the generation gap, that it just seems to get reinforced over and over again and to me from my experience it's like adults are not the enemry, just people that I'm not comfortable sharing with, and it's a shame because I know that adults having been alive a lot longer than I have have a lot of experience and have the potential to help me a lot with my struggles and particularly with people that aren't that that are questioning or that aren't as comfortable with their identity. But at my school there is a few a few LGBT teachers but of course they could get fired from their jobs if they were out so they can't uh be really, be really open about that. Occasioanly I'll hear teachers making homophobic comments or things like that or generally depicting it in a humorous light or in a derogatory light things like that but then again depending on the situation I won't I might not feel comfortable calling them out if it's in a class that I don't want to be identified as queer to or something like that. But in general most of the support that I feel like I get comes from my peers, comes from my friends or people my own age.

Have you ever called a teacher out? [22:35]

I have yet to call a teacher out on being homophobic because I'm generally not I'm generally not comfortable doing that. Um, I've talked to teachers.. there are two or three teachers I guess that I'm out to and at times I've talked to them about thing they've said about maybe they could be a bit more sensitive but generally if I'm comfortable enough to be out to them they're not overtly homophobic, at least around me. I don't know, I think it would take a lot of courage to confront a teacher, confront someone in a position of power over being homophobic, and so I'm really hoping that through teacher trainings, through uh support from the administration, through enforcement of policies that some of the adults in the community will really take the initiative to make sure that kind of stuff doesn't happen so that I don't have to be put in that situation.

...Do you feel like you fit into the adult gay community? [23:40]

The adult gay community...hmm, I'm not really connected with the adult gay community really.. umm.. I hear a lot of diaster stories about young people and older people, particularly males getting in romantic relationships and diasterous consequences resulting from that. And that's something I definitely don't want to be involved in. I've I have a few adult gay or lesbian allies and particularly in my church, the Unitarian Univeraslirt Church, which is a really, really supportive environment and one I'm very grateful for. There is people there that I was out to before I talked to my parents about it so I found a lot of good support in that community. But I really haven't extended too far out.

So if you don't really fit into the adult gay community, if youth in general don't and you certainly don't fit into the straight community..I mean not just in terms of getting support but like if you wanna go out and there is someone you want to meet...do you think there is a space for that? [24:45]

There is spaces where I can feel comfortable meeting people and being open with myself and my identity; they're pretty limited I guess but I mean there is certain coffee houses and certain places and such, but in general I have a pretty healthy group of friends and people that are comfortable being out and such but I feel for someone who's not.. who's questioning or just wants to meet someone to talk to or would like to meet someone their own age to compare experiences with or an older mentor, I feel there really is lacking um a good way for them to connect in to what's available.. I don't really know how would go about making that better but I guess just more places that were visible with the fact that they're safe places, that they're tolerant places, whether it's a safe zone sticker or a rainbow in the window.. something subtle that will let people know that this is a place where I can go and it's ok, and I don't have to feel like I'm hiding, I don't have [...] to reserve my affection with my partner the same gender. I don't have to repress these feelings in this environment.

Do you think it is the adult gay community's responsibility to make sure there is a space for youth and especially like the gay activism groups...? [~26:15]

I would definitely like to see the adult gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered community taking a more active role in make sure that youth are finding safe places and connecting with the resources they have available to them. I think that there is in general not a lot of dialog between older people and younger people.. just in general, across the spectrum, particularly in the LGBT community and I think that it's really crucial for um for older folks who have experience who know what it's like to grow up and be closeted and know what it's like to have to deal with all those pressures that come with not fitting in to the dominant way of life. I think it's really important for them to really connect up with youth somehow so that they can share their experiences and help each other.

...What would you say to the queer community [condensed @ 27:22]

I guess from the LGBT community I would from the adult community really like to know that you're there that you're visible that you have a presence that you're real people you're not some sort of abstract disease ridden sinful group, like it so often gets portrayed in the movie or in some people's churches or something like that. I just really want to know that there are normal people that go to work, and live in houses and have marriage partners just like just like everyone else. Just to be comfortable with the fact that it doesn't have to be a scary thing it doesn't have to be a deviant lifestyle that it really can be a fulfilling and healthy and self-affirming lifestyle to live.

So if your fairy godmother came down and would make you straight, how would you feel?

If I had the option of being straight again I don't think I would do it. Because I feel like that since I've come to terms with myself, since I've come to terms with my identity, I've really opened myself up to a lot more emotionally and I've been able to build much better relationships with people of both genders. Now that I'm more comfortable with myself it just seems like the more I see traditional male gender roles in America the more I see of that, being emotionally repressive, sexist, of being uncompassionate. The more I see of that the more disgusted I am of that. And I really don't want to be constrained in that model. I want to feel free, to express who I am with out feeling constrained by boundaries of gender roles or orientation or things like that.

Cool, any other questions? Anything you want to say?

Yeah...

[30:02]

When I got into high school, I was on a lot of personal journeys, and one of them was a religious journey, and I was really trying to figure out what my beliefs were in terms of God, in terms of heaven and hell, things like that. And I've been kinda drifting away from the Christian paradigm but I definitely wanted to make sure that I still respected all traditions like that, and wanted to make sure I could have a special conversation with people regardless of what they believe. One thing that I've found now that I've come out is that I really have an increasingly difficult time relating to and even at times respecting conservative, particular Christian religions and I'm really dismayed by that because it just seems like when if there is a Christian denomination to go out of it's way to decry my entire identity, my entire way of life if you will, that it just makes it so hard to relate to people like that. That I don't know how to deal with it. I don't know how I can have a civil conversation with you if you're trying.. if your religious beliefs dictate that my entire lifestyle is incorrect and sinful and evil. I just don't know how to deal with that. So I really wish that the Christian community could put its tenants of respect for all people and love and nonjudgement above criticizing for who I think I am. And so I've just really.. I think as a function of my sexual orientation have found it increasingly difficult to relate to Christian people in general and I think that's really sad because I think that there is a lot that I could I could learn from and grow from in a Christian tradition but I'm finding myself increasingly alienated by the stances that they take.

Hmm..yeah..ok..

I'm also finding that umm when I find people that are allied, straight people that are allied they'll say things like "of course it's ok to be gay, there is nothing wrong with it because you can't do anything about it..it's not a choice" And things like that..and that really makes me wonder if that's really..is that really helping my cause? I mean by implying it's a genetic thing, a passive thing you have no control over; first of all that implies that it can be cured it can be fixed, as if there is something inherently wrong, inherently deviant about it which is a really offensive idea to me, and also implying that if it were possible, it would be desirable to change ones sexual orientation and so I just want to reject that entire model of thinking. Regardless..I want to say that it's completely irreverent if it's a choice, if it's forced upon me, if it's genetic, if it came from some child hood incident. I want to embrace the fact that I identify as queer regardless of any cause or lack thereof. I just want, I want society to move to a place where sexual orientation is just accepted, regardless of any cause.

Whoohoo!